Since creating this blog about 18 months ago I have received a great deal of feedback and responses to my articles. Most of the responses are from supporters but I have had quite a number of people respond who are critics of my position.
Unfortunately, a significant number of those critics respond with verbal abuse and do not even make an attempt to make any sort of reasoned argument to support their allegations against me. I’m sure this sort of thing is common amongst all bloggers.
So recently I was pleasantly surprised to receive some criticism from someone who tried to make clear the reasons for the objections he had with my article about the validity of Jewish occupation of the Holy Land without repentance on the part of the Jewish people before the advent of the Messiah.
Michael Korn, who also goes by the name Menachem Mevashir, is an Israeli by birth and converted to Christianity from Orthodox Judaism. He recognises the brutality of Zionism, especially toward the Palestinian people. This is a welcome change from most supporters of Israel who are normally completely ignorant about Zionism and ignore their brutality to the Arabs of Palestine.
As such he has an interesting perspective and I decided to post my small discussion with him (with his permission) in order to get some thoughtful responses from others as well as myself. Below are the two emails he sent me explaining his objections.
Dear Craig,
Regarding your views below: https://craignielsen.wordpress.com/tag/gary-burge/
I invite you to read the following letter.
You fail to understand that Zionism was a movement created by the West, particularly the US and UK, and forced upon the Jews to serve as an imperial outpost for those nations.
You are missing the forest for the trees. And so far as your claim that one cannot have restoration without repentance, you also fail to perceive that the West did repent of its virulent anti Semitism that spawned Hitler’s policies in the first place. Even Pope Pius XII told Jules Isaac after WWII ended that God would compensate the Jews for their sufferings by restoring them to their ancient homeland.
Please broaden your horizons.
Sincerely,
Michael Korn
Dear Menachem,
Thanks so much for your interesting comments. You make a very interesting point about Zionism being a non-Jewish invention. The idea has some merit for sure. I definitely think Zionism was to some extent “forced” upon Jewish people. The west has supported it for its own self interested reasons.
The point about repentance I don’t get at all.
Thanks again,
Craig Nielsen
Dear Craig,
Thanks for writing back.
I’m glad you responded, since my remark to you was much too cursory to understand properly. So let me try again.
What I meant about repentance is that although I understand your position that it seems absurd for Christians to support a Jewish State that has not really accepted Jesus as Savior (in seeming violation of Christian Theology!) — a perspective that I shared until recently — I think there are a number of mitigating factors. And I state these things as a former Orthodox Jew who converted to Christianity partly to escape the brutality of Israeli Zionism, in which I was a participant for many years.
One of the mitigating factors is that the Christian nations themselves saw fit, for a variety of reasons, some selfish and some altruistic, to compensate Jews for their suffering in the Holocaust with a restored homeland in the Middle East. Jesus said His followers would be princes over Israel, so if those followers saw fit (for whatever reasons) to mandate a renewed Jewish political entity in the Middle East, then that grants it credence (even though it seems unfair to the native Palestinian inhabitants).
This attitude came on the back of a long standing sentiment in especially English speaking countries to restore Jews to their homeland, as illustrated in the Victoria Clark book mentioned below.
Another factor is that, speaking as a former resident of Israel, in some ways Israelis serve as custodians and facilitators of Christian tourism to the Holy Land, which is a vital part of the Israeli economy. According to Jesus’ words that whoever would give even a glass of cold water to the least of His followers would be considered to have given it to Jesus, I think one can argue that Israeli hospitality to Christians (of course again for a mixed multitude of reasons) renders them favor in Christ’s eyes.
Israelis are in regular contact with global Christianity in the form of tourism and also indigenous holy sites, which are everywhere in that tiny country. They cannot easily escape awareness of Christianity. I myself was moved to convert after viewing the Jesus Film in perfect modern Hebrew. This film is the only Jesus depiction made entirely in the Holy Land, again with the approval of the Israeli authorities, and the fact that its influence is so huge (3 billion viewers worldwide) I believe also accrues merit to Israelis in Christ’s eyes.
I also believe that Israel plays an important role in subduing Islam. And although I deplore the cruelties of Israel towards the Palestinians, the fact is that Islam’s denial of Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection is a terrible blasphemy. Jesus appears to be using two blasphemous faiths (Judaism and Islam) to subdue and humble each other. (Elsewhere I have written how Judaism and Islam are two sides of the same anti-Christ coin.)
Many Israelis, however, are secular, and only pay lip-service to rabbinical Judaism. They use rabbis for marriage, divorce, burial, circumcision, and bar mitzvahs. But apart from these major life cycle events, Israelis are extremely empty and hungry spiritually, and I believe unusually open to the Gospel. (Much more so than Jews in the Diaspora.)
I also think that Ezekiel’s Vision of the Dry Bones (chapter 37) alludes to the idea that God might reconstitute a nation in the flesh before He revitalizes them spiritually. The Holocaust brought world Jewry literally to the point of death, and it is entirely possible that God now sees fit to show them mercy in one last effort to bring them to the Cross. And the prelude to their conversion is their ingathering.
Only Christ can fathom the complexity of the operation He oversaw to reconstitute the Jewish homeland. The very organization (Nazism) that drove them out of Europe and made possible their Zionist State is the same organization that so traumatized them and makes them resent Christianity. It is a terrible conundrum for all parties and we can only hope that Supernatural Providence will prevail to open the eyes and hearts of all parties involved.
I am happy to read your thoughts about this vexing problem.
Sincerely,
Michael Korn
Israel-Palestine 
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January 11, 2012 at 6:59 am
Bek
First of all – Craig and Michael, thanks to both of you for caring enough to engage in conversation about this stuff, and for sharing that with a wider audience too.
I’m interested by Michael’s comments about Israel offering hospitality to Christian tourists, and how this may render favour to Israel in Christ’s eyes. I wonder if Michael is aware that there are many Palestinian Christians who have suffered and continue to suffer the same human rights abuses as all other Palestinians suffer at the hands of the State of Israel? How does this fit with the idea of giving even a glass of water to the least of these?
I also disagree with the notion that Israel plays an important role in subduing Islam. For a starters, as I’ve already said, there are many Palestinian Christians so the oppression of Palestinians is not about Islam. And in fact, through it’s harsh occupation policies, Israel has created conditions both in Gaza and the West Bank that leave people feeling desperate, and actually encourage extremism and fundamentalism.
In addition, Islam is a global religion. Palestine and Israel is a tiny patch of land with a small population in the global context. From an Australian perspective, the combined land of Palestine and Israel is a third of Tasmania, our smallest state. The land left available to Palestinians is now less than 20% of that. So we’re talking about ‘subduing’ a couple of million people in an area of land less than 20% of one third of Tasmania – I fail to see how that’s really going to subdue the approximately 1.5billion followers of Islam spread globally. (By the way, I’d like to add that I don’t really think Islam needs to be subdued, but the aforementioned points are for argument’s sake).
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January 11, 2012 at 7:25 am
craignielsen
Thanks Bek. I agree with the idea that we do not need to see Islam as something that needs to be subdued. Islam and Judaism have existed side by side in the Holy land for centuries before the existence of the Zionist state of Israel. The Gospel of Jesus is a Gospel of reconciliation. If anything it is the state of Israel and European colonialism that has inflamed the Muslim world against the west. If those issues were dealt with properly relations between the west and Islam would probably be much different.
God’s plan for the current Zionist state of Israel is known to Him and Him only. I think our concern is that Israel, like any other country, be a nation of justice and equality for all regardless of race, religion or gender. God’s plan for the judgement and salvation of the world is His business and I am happy to leave it to Him.
I also agree with you about Israel not being something pivotal to stopping the spread of Islam anyway. Islam is already a global religion.I personally couldn’t care less if the Holy Land exists in a nation whose majority population is Islamic, Christian, Jewish or secular, so long as it is a country that has justice and equality as central values. How does the idea of who controls the Holy Land even remotely affect the truth of the Gospel of Jesus? Where in the Bible does Jesus command us to always make sure that the Holy Land is in the hands of Christians or Jews and not Muslims or anyone else?
I also wonder why it is only Islam’s rejection of Jesus resurrection that seems to matter here? Surely rejecting Jesus as God is equally serious for Jews, Zionists, Muslims, Jehovah Witnesses or Communists.
I am happy to support an Israeli state so long as it has equality and justice for all its citizens. Its role in God’s plan is not really my concern. God can worry about that bit!
What I find refreshing about Michael’s position is that he does not simply take the position that Israel can do no wrong and that he acknowledges the brutal treatment handed out to Palestinians. He does not seem to take the position that Israel has some special entitlement to do whatever they want or that Palestinians have simply brought all their troubles on themselves.
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January 11, 2012 at 10:22 pm
Michael Korn
Craig,
You write:
“Where in the Bible does Jesus command us to always make sure that the Holy Land is in the hands of Christians or Jews and not Muslims or anyone else?”
I would say this alludes to future Jewish restoration there:
Luke 21:24
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Also:
“I also wonder why it is only Islam’s rejection of Jesus resurrection that seems to matter here? Surely rejecting Jesus as God is equally serious for Jews, Zionists, Muslims, Jehovah Witnesses or Communists.”
It is very serious. That’s why I said that Judaism and Islam are the flip side of the same anti-Christ coin.
But remember that most Israelis (80%) are secular. They do not adhere to the religion of the rabbis except for ceremonial purposes. They are awaiting their true Savior.
I also admire the Jehova’s Witnesses for opposing military service. They were the only religious group, apart from the Jews, singled out by the Nazis for concentration camps.
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January 11, 2012 at 11:22 pm
craignielsen
Michael,
Most Israelis being secular still does not mean much different to them being Jewish or Islamic as far as accepting Christ goes as far as I am concerned. I also admire some Jehovah’s witnesses but that is not the point. I also admire many Muslims that I have known over the years, a number of them Palestinian. I don’t think Luke 21:24 is even remotely a COMMAND to take over the Holy Land, nor is it even alluded to in this passage. I hardly think that Luke 21:24 justifies the Crusaders who, by their own account, put Arab children on skewers and cooked and ate them, Imagine how we would feel if anyone of another faith.
invaded our homeland and did that to us?
The point for me is that Jesus does not say subdue your enemies, He says love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you. Subjugation is not a battle tactic of the Kingdom of Heaven.The point about Israel and their relationship to the land is that the current state of Israel is clearly in violation of the covenant of Moses. It doesn’t matter if they are slightly more favourable to the “Christian “west than other countries. I think an evangelist would have more luck holding a mass rally in Cuba than in Israel.
Jewish people simply do not own the land. They have very specific Biblically mandated conditions in order to occupy that land legitimately. I don’t think you have even gotten close to making the case that they have sufficiently fulfilled those conditions to warrant supporting the idea that they occupy the land legitimately from a Biblical perspective. In the end, God only knows.
I think trying to validate Israel on biblical grounds is divisive and a dead end.
Craig
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January 11, 2012 at 10:18 pm
Michael Korn
Bek,
Thanks for your thoughtful remarks.
By subduing Islam, I did not mean in Palestine per se but the larger context of Israel and the Arab world. Already we have the bizarre alignment of Israel and Saudi Arabia collaborating on the planned war on Iran.
There are very few Palestinian Christians. About 2% of the total population. Those in Israel proper report general satisfaction with Israel (as much as can be expected for a minority). It’s hard to sort out the truth. Many Israeli Messianics, who work together with Palestinian Christians, report that the Christians hope for Israel to prevail against their Moslem Palestinian neighbors. Brigitte Gabriel and Walid Shoebat, both of whom are rabid Arab-Zionists, report the same thing:
http://www.shoebat.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigitte_Gabriel
See also this person:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_A._Gabriel
One little appreciated aspect of this conflict (I state this based on my personal experiences living there and also studying the situation) is that Palestinian Christianity is almost entirely Catholic-Maronite or Greek-Orthodox. Both these groups have made a kind of modus-vivendi with the much more numerous Moslem Palestinians and especially avoid evangelizing them.
The Christian Zionists are largely anti-Catholic evangelicals, who have little understanding of the delicate situation the Palestinian Christians find themselves in. They are continuing, in my opinion, the conflict of the Reformation against the Catholic Church from many centuries ago.
The fact is that Palestinian Christians live very fragiley both spiritually and politically, suspended between Israeli political power and Islam’s dominance of religious culture. Their plight is very poor indeed. But I’m not sure Israel bears all the blame for that.
In some ways Palestinian Christians are replicating the original mission of Jesus to die on the Cross. Perhaps Israelis will become sensitized to their suffering and come to appreciate who Jesus really is.
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January 11, 2012 at 11:26 pm
craignielsen
There are over 100,000 Palestinians who call themselves Christian in Israel. Not too different from my home state South Australia. I have read mountains of stuff from them claiming that is is the newcomers, the Zionists, that have given the most grief, not the Muslims. There is an interesting article on this on Stephen Sizer’s blog at the moment.
Craig
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January 11, 2012 at 9:32 pm
Michael Korn
Craig,
Thanks for posting this. Look forward to an interesting discussion.
The book link is:
Allies for Armageddon: The Rise of Christian Zionism
There’s a google books link with excerpts here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=8_Kms7h_h0UC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Allies+for+Armageddon:+The+Rise+of+Christian+Zionism&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w_8NT7yYL4me2AXx6szUBw&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Allies%20for%20Armageddon%3A%20The%20Rise%20of%20Christian%20Zionism&f=false
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January 11, 2012 at 9:51 pm
Michael Korn
at the risk of overburdening your readers, i would like to include these comments i have shared recently with an Israeli rabbi about the role of the holocaust in bringing about the state of israel. it will help clarify what i meant about Israel being an atonement for Christendom’s role in the holocaust:
On Christian anti-Semitism and the Holocaust.
There are a couple of perspectives on this that might help us preserve our sanity and our faith in God. First is the idea that the Holocaust was a necessary precursor of the re-establishment of the modern State of Israel. This is because Hitler created the refugee crisis and stunned the consciousness of Western Christendom sufficiently to overcome their inertia and force them to ratify a Jewish State. It also forced them out of the political contradictions signified by the Balfour Declaration and the British White Paper on Jewish Immigration to Palestine, which reflected competing — and contradictory — foregn policy impulses of the British government. It is well known that Zionist leaders viewed Naziism as a blessing within a curse that highlighted the urgent need for a Jewish homeland. One could write probably a 1000 page tome on all the tragic ironies and contradictions in this process, as the book Perfidy just touches on.
Second, it is amazing that out of all Christian nations in Europe, Germany was the only one with relatively equally divided Catholic and Protestant populations. This means that the Holocaust represented the collective acquiescene of all parts of Christendom. (The Eastern and Russian Orthodox already had proved their malice in the many Russian pogroms; although see this amazing story about Bulgarian Chief Rabbi Daniel Tzion and the Orthodox Metropolitan of Bulgaria for a notable exception to this.) Now how does one deal with the fact that the most culturally advanced nation in the world (Germany) perpetrated such a ghastly slaughter of Jews? I don’t think we can ever fully fathom this. But in an effort to make sense of the insane and unfathomable, we can offer these perspectives:
a. Amazingly the Bible Codes reveal a plethora of Nazi names and terminology in Genesis 8, in the very chapter where Noah sends forth the dove from the ark. If we consider the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD to symbolize Noah’s Flood (which God sent in judgment of the world), and Germany to represent the Ark that the Diaspora was to Jewry for nearly 2000 years (and indeed the most successful Jews in the modern world all came out of Germany, including Shlomo Carlebach himself!), and the dove to represent Israel; then perhaps we can say that the Nazi persecution of the Jews was a distant echo of Noah’s sending forth the dove out of the ark in search of land. It’s as though the Germans understood that the time had come to reverse the Flood and to restore the world to normalcy again, specifically by returning the Jews to Eretz Yisrael. (I hope you understand that I only state this because the Bible Codes reveal these horrible Nazi names inside this beautifully hopeful passage about the end of the Flood; otherwise I would not dare to make this assertion.) the Holocaust was a distorted reflection of God’s desire to bring His people home again. The Nazis perverted this into the concept of Europe Judenrein; but nevertheless God’s primal will prevailed and the Zionist State of Israel is seen by virtually all parties, both Jewish and Christian, as just compensation for the Holocaust, the resurrection from the dead, as it were, of the nation of Israel.
b. The Holocaust also represents the condemnation of many forms of Western Christianity, whose separation from its Jewish parent religion led to such a horrible slaughter. Since that time almost all churches have seen a re-emphasis on studying and exploring the Jewish roots of their faith and especially of Jesus’ teachings.
c. The history of Israel is full of violence, even between Israelite tribes. (Eg, the virtual annihilation of the Tribe of Benjamin and the longstanding rivalry between the kingdoms of Judah and Israel.) Just because Christians have perpetrated violence against Jews does not mean that they are not also people of God.
d. This will be a hard idea for you to accept, but it came to me back in 2005 when a Jewish settler family posed your question to me, asking how I could believe in the Person in whose name so much Jewish blood has been shed? Long after they departed, I thought of a possible answer: Remember that after the sin of the Golden Calf that God wanted to annihilate the Israelites and to start all over again with Moses. If God’s wrath burned so greatly just because of the error of false worship, imagine how much His wrath might burn for the sin of despising His Son and True Messiah? Assume for a moment that Jesus is the Messiah, and then ask yourself what the possible consequences would be for Jews to despise Him, blaspheme His name, and boast of killing Him (all of which occur in the Talmud and in other rabbinic writings)? Would we not expect God’s severest judgment of us?
e. On a related theme, some explain Isaiah 53 as portending that those who do not accept that Messiah underwent all the horrible travails described in this chapter would have to undergo them themselves. Is there any better way to describe the Holocaust, which so many have depicted as Jews going like lambs to the slaughter? Is it possible that they were forced to pay the price that they would not believe Jesus already had paid for them?
f. Another unpopular idea for Jewish people is that the Holocaust may have been a kind of Divine payback for the original persecution of Christians by Jews back in the early centuries of the Church. It is well known that people like Rabbi Akiva hated Jesus and some suggest that he cynically proclaimed Bar Kochba as Messiah simply to undercut Jesus’ popularity. Of course in doing so he gave the green light for a ruinous war that devastated the Jewish nation and led to his own brutal execution at the hands of the Romans. Also it is well known that Rabbi Judah the Prince was close friends with the Roman Emperor Antoninus. Either he or his son, the next Emperor, led a brutal persecution against Christians throughout the Roman Empire, which some speculate may have resulted from the anti-Christian influence of Judah the Prince. This book even claims that there were six million early Christian martyrs killed by Rome, and lays at least some of that blame at the feet of the rabbis. So if this is true, the Holocaust might be seen as severe Divine Payback, Midda keneged Midda, for the cruelty Jews instigated against Christians so long ago. (See this amazing essay by an OU rabbi that actually blames the pacifism of the early Jewish-Christians for the failure of the Bar Kochba revolt!)
g. Finally I wish to emphasize that what the Nazis did was ghastly and wrong. No Christian should attempt to justify it. But then again, German Jews were rich and successful and boastful of their achievments. They were not living humble and meek lives serving God and bringing His light to the Goyim. Can they have been surprised that the anger, jealousy and rage of the German Christians was provoked? God decreed that Jerusalem be destroyed in 70 AD. And while no one would suggest that the Roman soldiers who did this were tzaddiqim, it’s as though God needed someone to do the dirty deed. And perhaps this is how we should view the Nazi era. (Perhaps read these essays that touch on this subject by Orthodox rabbi Daniel Lapin.)
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January 11, 2012 at 11:42 pm
craignielsen
From my understanding some Rabbis believe that the Holocaust enabled Jews to be released from their Talmudic oath not to take back the Holy Land (Palestine). Most Rabbis that I have spoken to on this point believe that the Holocaust only enabled Jews to fight back against the Germans (otherwise forbidden by the oath not to stir up the nations). This would have no bearing on the oath not to return to Israel.
My point about Israel returning legitimately is not that the west needed to repent (which they did need to do) but that the Jewish people need to do repent. I agree that the Holocaust was a major influence in creating the state of Israel. Before 1933 only a trickle of Jews went to Palestine, but it is Israels full repentance that is the question for me, not Christianity’s repentance. The current state of Israel is about as secular as is Australia with a minority either following an Orthodox Judaism or Christianity. This hardly looks like repentance to me.
Israel’s Biblical legitimacy is a vexing question indeed. I think bringing justice and equality to all in Israel is a step far closer to repentance in God’s eyes that mere conversion to Christianity or simply a better disposition to the west than the Arab or Muslim world. I think if we want to have better relations with the Arab world it would be better to let others talk about subjugation and let us start talking about reconciliation. We were God’s enemies but He chose reconciliation for us rather than subjugation. I think we should follow His lead.
Craig
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January 11, 2012 at 10:02 pm
Michael Korn
following are links to above piece that did not come through:
Pefidy:
Messianic Rabbi Daniel Zion:
http://www.netivyah.org/index.php/en/publications/articles/articles/362-rabbi-daniel-zion
Rabbi Akiva and Bar Kochba:
http://beitsimcha.org/s_ser/s_ser_0009.asp
Rabbinic persecution of early Christians:
http://www.ramsheadpress.com/html/mes.html
Rabbis blaming early Jewish Christians for failure of Bar Kochba revolt:
http://www.ou.org/chagim/sefira/mystery.htm
Orthodox Rabbi Daniel Lapin on Jewish debasement of Western culture:
http://www.rense.com/general62/deb.htm
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January 12, 2012 at 12:28 am
Michael Korn
excellent comments all.
i don’t own a computer and work at the public library and am about out of time. so i will try to post some comments and then maybe get back to you tormorrow, please God.
1. Can you send a link to the Sizer articles about Palestinian Christians?
2. “God’s plan for the current Zionist state of Israel is known to Him and Him only. I think our concern is that Israel, like any other country, be a nation of justice and equality for all regardless of race, religion or gender. God’s plan for the judgement and salvation of the world is His business and I am happy to leave it to Him.”
Israel is in the throes of redefining itself. It cannot be both democratic and Jewish. I have always believed that it should simply be Israeli. If Israel were not hung up on the impossible contradiction of being a Jewish state, it would do what any nation victorious in war does: it would integrate the conquered peoples into its society. That would end the problems with the Palestinians overnight. But this cannot happen unless there is some common cultural denominator between the groups. My hope and vision is that Jesus will provide that: He will prove the common denominator between Jews and Muslims.
3. There is no command to take over the Holy Land. I agree. But if Christian nations decide to restore Jews there, that is their right. They ran the UN and got the majority to vote that way. I also agree that the plan was unfair to the Palestinian natives. The partition plan was naive and doomed to fail. But it gave Israel the green light to exist and they took it and ran with it ever since. I understand why the Arab nations opposed this plan and went to war, but in doing so they opposed the will of the international community of which they were part. They lost and are paying the consequences ever since.
4. “The point about Israel and their relationship to the land is that the current state of Israel is clearly in violation of the covenant of Moses.”
Exactly my point. They are there at the behest of Christians. They have been reconstituted as a state due to Christians. This sugggests that Jesus Covenant is supplanting Moses ,as it should. And amazingly, the anti Zionist rabbis often critique Zionism for being covertly Christian and anti Jewish. And they are right, but they are wrong to oppose it. It is God’s will.
5. “It doesn’t matter if they are slightly more favourable to the “Christian“ west than other countries. I think an evangelist would have more luck holding a mass rally in Cuba than in Israel.”
Not true. Benny Hinn has held large rallies in Tel Aviv. And local Messianic groups have large gatherings both in their regular places of worship and at new age type festivals.
But I agree with you that Israel is far from perfect. It is just God’s last offer to Jewish People to come to Christ.
6. One other point to consider. Hitler killed Jews who were religious, secular, and even converts to Christianity. Nothing protected them from his madness. And many Jews learned from this that even if they embrace Christ, they must be able to do so from the security of their own land. And I think that is a fair argument.
7. “From my understanding some Rabbis believe that the Holocaust enabled Jews to be released from their Talmudic oath not to take back the Holy Land (Palestine). Most Rabbis that I have spoken to on this point believe that the Holocaust only enabled Jews to fight back against the Germans (otherwise forbidden by the oath not to stir up the nations). This would have no bearing on the oath not to return to Israel.”
I’m amazed you even know about this line of argument! It is called the Three Oaths. Two on Jews and one on Gentiles. It is based on a Talmudic passage about the verse in Song of Songs about not arousing love before its time. The oaths are: (1) Jews should not rebel against the Gentile nations in which they live in exile. (2) Jews should not take E”Y by force. (3) The Gentile nations should not abuse their Jewish guests.
All rabbis who sympathize with Zionism that I know of say both Jewish oaths are voided when the Gentiles violate theirs. And incidentally this may explain the Bolshevik revolution as Jews repudiating (1) while Zionism represents the repudiation of (2).
Rabbis also say that since the UN voted to partition the land, even (2) is not violated and the Jews returned there with the consent of the Gentile rulers.
So far as the refugee crisis after the Holocaust goes, I doubt you will seriously argue that the law of Moses prevents these wretches from coming to E”Y! If so that all the more suggests that it is the Covenant of Compassion of Jesus that is relevant here!
8. “My point about Israel returning legitimately is not that the west needed to repent (which they did need to do) but that the Jewish people need to do repent. I agree that the Holocaust was a major influence in creating the state of Israel. Before 1933 only a trickle of Jews went to Palestine, but it is Israels full repentance that is the question for me, not Christianity’s repentance.” I understand you, but in my opinion no one who is in sin can judge another. Both groups need to repent, and it is better that Jews deal with Jewish repentance while Christians deal with Christian repentance. And if Christian nations encouraged the rise of Zionism, why should Jews refuse that gift?
9. I also believe that people have the right to self-defense. Jesus said to turn the other cheek, not if someone stabs you in the heart offer him your neck too!
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January 12, 2012 at 8:11 am
craignielsen
G’day Michael,
1. http://stephensizer.blogspot.com/2012/01/muslim-brotherhood-protects-churches.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+stephen-sizers-blog+%28Stephen+Sizer%27s+Blog%29
Here is the URL to Stephen Sizer’s blog. also you can see my blog article, “Islam not the problem for Palestinian Christians”
2. You are absolutely right about Israel not being able to be both a democracy and a Jewish state. I myself prefer the idea of Israel being a democracy. States being “owned” by a particular ethnic or religious group is a relic of the past and a proven way to oppression and injustice. I don not think a democratic Israel would contradict any Biblical mandate. I reject the idea of a Jewish, Muslim or Christian nation. If Australia became a Christian nation, I would move.
If by integration you mean making Arabs equals with Jews in Israel, in every way possible, then I agree with you. In my country, Australia, the white settlers conquered the Aboriginal people but integration has been very difficult. What has become clear is that true reconciliation is required. This has meant non-Aboriginal Australia admitting to its wrongs and injustices against the indigenous people of Australia.
3. For the life of me I do not see how the west (or Christian nations as you call them) has a right to set up a Jewish nation in the Holy land in a way that negates the rights of the indigenous non-Jews of Palestine. To do so would, and has been, as recipe for disaster.
4. I think your point here is pretty dodgy really. I don’t think it follows that if “Christian” nations set up Israel that it means it is ordained by God as if it were some part of the new covenant.
I think that the new covenant shows us that Jesus Himself is the real fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham and the Mosaic covenant but that is a more complicated issue.
5. I’m not sure about what you say about Benny Hinn. I looked up the net for any evidence of him doing evangelistic rallies to Jewish audiences in Tel Aviv and couldn’t find any. Hinn is a full on Christian Zionist and I am not surprised that he has had meetings in Israel, but not sure about evangelistic rallies to Jewish audiences. The Orthodox Jewish community would hit the roof! American Christian Zionists have pretty much struck a deal with the Israelis in that the Christian Zionists have a lot of access to Israel so long as they do not try and convert Jews to Christianity. A number of Evangelicals, like Jews for Jesus, have been very critical of this move. I believe Billy Graham’s son, Franklin, has had evangelistic rallies in Cuba with mass calls for Cubans to give their lives to Jesus. I really don’t think this has happened in Israel.
6. I really don’t think Jews having a state of their own is the best defense against anti-Semitism. In the end I think we must remember that Jews survived the Holocaust without the state of Israel. For two thousand years Jews have found the best way to deal with anti-Semitism is to not bunch up. This was because if anti-Semitism broke out in one region, Jews in that region would have multiple escape routes to safety.
Another thing is that the dispossession of Arabs that has been a necessary part of the creation of the Zionist state has greatly stirred up the nations against them once more.Palestinian Arabs were not the enemies of Jews before the Zionist era and they were not responsible for the Holocaust.If I were an anti-Semite like Hitler, I would welcome (as in fact Hitler did) having all the Jews of the world living in one small place. It would have made them far easier to destroy if they were all bunched up rather than spread all over the world. This is the rationale behind the strategy used by Jews to combat gross anti-Semitism in the past.
7. I think that Jews have a right to live any where they please. I would never have denied them entry to Palestine after the Holocaust. The Talmudic oaths are about being forbidden to control the Holy Land. It was not against individual Jews living there. I don’t agree with the Zionist Rabbis interpretation of the oaths that if one oath is broken, all responsibility to keep the other oaths is abrogated. I think the vast majority of Rabbinical opinion over the last two thousand years agrees with this point. A lot of Rabbis simply do not see the current state of Israel as being connected to the Biblical Israel. Yakov Rabkin (an Orthodox Jew) has written a marvelous book on this topic called “A Threat from Within: A Century of Jewish Opposition to Zionism” it is a great read!
8. I certainly don’t think Jews are obligated to do what western nations want them to do. The vast majority of Jews recoiled in horror at Zionism and its plan to retake Palestine. Maybe they should have been listened to?
9. I agree that we have the right to self defense. But we do not have the right to negate the demands of the Gospel to be ministers of reconciliation for the sake of Zionist colonialism.
Most of the issues you raise have been addressed in my book. It is available at Amazon online.
Craig
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January 12, 2012 at 5:15 am
John Hillary
Interesting discussion, and I’ll comment later on some aspects, but for now I want to broach something else this highlights.
All posts except the first are between the two of you. That is not a problem, of course, in itself, but it illustrates the absence of others that is seen in response to most articles. Some have had no posts at all.
Craig, you said this blog has only been going for 18 months, so I guess this lack is to be expected. Do you know how many hits you are getting, or how many readers you probably have?
I discovered you when you had an article published in April at Mondoweiss. How do, or how can, people become aware of this blog? How could it be better promoted??
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January 12, 2012 at 6:09 am
craignielsen
G’day John,
In the first six months I only had about 175 hits! In the last 12 months I have had about 8,500 hits which is a lot better. i didn’t know about tags and categories to start with. For a maths and science teacher I am not that into computers. I have been more interested in promoting my book just lately as it has been republished and just released on Amazon books.
I’m not sure how to promote the blog much more either.
I will be putting up some replies to the discussion myself.
Craig
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January 12, 2012 at 9:53 pm
John Hillary
Several thousand hits compared with 175, I’d call that pretty good progress, Craig!
That’s encouraging, but still hardly any are posting here. Perhaps the ratio is low for any blog, but I wonder if anything can be done to stimulate more readers to enter the discussion and give their views or tell us their story.
To continue at that level of increase, what might be key is to find some computer whiz among your friends and acqaintances, in your city or among your readers.
Working with Amazon has been essential for your book, and this may be likewise for the blog.
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January 12, 2012 at 10:35 pm
John Hillary
Craig, just a little more, two thoughts have just come to me!
A maths and science teacher, huh. Yet look where your interests have taken you over recent years…history!
From my own experience, I have found that in researching Israel-Palestine, a major part has involved the history of that area. I have further found that that has inevitably and increasingly meant, for me, learning new information on world history, and having a new understanding of what I already (thought I) knew.
Ever considered adding history to your teaching résumé?
My other thought is about the blog. Think seriously about the issue of links. There may be a real opportunity there. I think it would potentially make you known to so many more than would otherwise be the case.
Your goal could be to become a link on as many other blogs or sites as possible. As I see it, a good way would be an arrangement for you to put a site on your links list and that same site putting yours on theirs.
I see, for example, you list Mondoweiss, but your site is not on their blogroll. Surely a lost opportunity, yet one that may well be easily taken hold of now. Check it out with Phil or Adam or Annie, I see no reason why they would say no.
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January 14, 2012 at 12:37 am
John Hillary
Michael, this is a brief reply to the basic theme and ideas you have written about here.
I am likely to be writing several posts in response to you. But I first want to put in place a solid foundation.
And what better way to begin that than to quote three of your statements, by addressing them from me to you:
You are missing the forest for the trees. Please broaden your horizons. I hope what I write will enable you to come to better appreciate who Jesus really is, and just how radical were the changes his coming brought.
His position is made very clear by the parable of the new wine and the new wineskin (Luke 2:36-39). The change is total, not partial.
What we must grasp is that, in God’s sight and in spiritual reality, “the old has passed away, the new has come”, 2 Corinthians 5:17. And that this applies not just to us as individuals, but to the whole age, to all people, and that in the new economy there is no longer Jew and Gentile.
It is a new arrangement and a new relationship, no longer based on the outward letter but the inward reality, no longer based on who we are or what we do and have done but on who he is and what he does and has done.
What does this mean for someone who is a Jew, as I think you are? Just what it meant for the Jew called Saul of Tarsus. Just what this one who became Paul tells us of how it affected him. See Philippians 3:4-14.
There is so much more I could and probably will say on this, but this is enough for you to get the drift. The only thing I would add is that you also look at, and ponder on, the context of the scriptures I have used.
Most of what you have written is about Jews and Israel, Michael. While that is natural and understandable, I suggest that you “lift up your eyes, and see how the fields are already ripe for harvest”, John 4:35.
That is the forest you are missing, that is the broader horizon. Israel and the Jews are, in that sense, the trees you are seeing.
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January 14, 2012 at 3:33 pm
Michael Korn
Thanks John for writing.
In my opinion Israel is the field ripe for the harvest. This is because Jews can embrace Christ in their own land with less cultural insecurity than they might have anywhere else in the world. This is the very opportunity I am speaking about!
History has put Israel on the map. One of Europe’s most Christianized and cultured nations abused Jews to the point of ennihilation, while other Christian nations (mainly Anglo Saxon) compensated them with a homeland. It is now for Christians to ensure that this homeland is not just some carnal excercise in futile nationalism but truly an opportunity to win them for Christ.
We cannot turn the clock back. It would be a travesty to deny the historical forces that claimed so many lives just to put Israel back on the map. 6 million Jews killed out of 60 million worldwide in WWII. A tithe. Just a coincidence? Hardly.
Jesus wanted them home so He can deal with them directly.
And never forget that the Nazis killed many many Jewish believers and converts to Christianity. The lesson is clear: the times of the Gentiles have ended….
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January 14, 2012 at 3:59 pm
Michael Korn
just watched the video from budapest. praise God! I was there with a chassidic group back in 1991 when it was still communist. what an amazing change! Glory to God!
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January 17, 2012 at 1:24 am
John Hillary
Thanks Michel for your response. That is a great video, well written and performed, cool music.
The field is the world, and that includes Israelites, and Jews wherever they are. It makes no difference whether we are in our own land or not. In fact not being “at home” somewhere may make us more open to the gospel, not less.
Jesus can deal with Jews directly anywhere they live. The place is irrelevant, Jesus said so, see John 4:19-24. He came to free us from all such outward considerations. Nowhere on earth is our home, we are strangers and pilgrims looking for a city…Hebrews 11:13-16.
6 million Jews killed out of 60 million worldwide in WWII. A tithe. Just a coincidence? Hardly.
The figures have no such significance. Not 60 million, but 16 million.
The lesson is clear: the times of the Gentiles have ended….
No so fast! The times of the Gentiles will only be ended by the return of Jesus. These times were ushered in by the coming of Jesus, with his gospel for both Jew and Gentile. The wrath, the treading down, the captivity, are spiritual, as was so much Jesus spoke about.
That this is so is seen by what Paul wrote in Galatians 4:21-27, which agrees with what Isaiah wrote at 63:18-19. That is the lesson the gospel teaches.
Once again, please do read and ponder the verses I have mentioned, in their own context and in the context of what I have said.
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